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The reasons for this confusion are many, but one of those is a current evangelism tool found in the central Louisiana area. This particular tool ask the question, “What does God require for a person to go to heaven?”, and follows this question with the answer “P. R. A. Y.”. So, basically God requires you to pray. Is this indeed what the All-Sufficient God has required from humanity? I will give no personal opinion, rather I will direct you to the Lord Jesus and let Him answer the question for all of us.
One place where Jesus lifts this fog of confusion is the Sermon on the Mount, which reveals the standard God requires all mankind to meet. Nevermind what men today tell you, listen to the One who will determine your eternal destiny. According to Jesus the standard God requires was fixed, failed, and fulfilled.
1. The Standard was Fixed.
Do you like to spend time looking into the mirror? How about while comparing yourself with some celebrity, model or sports figure? Surely you would say “NO”! Most of us are aware of at least some of our imperfections. Therefore, we don’t like to look at pictures of so called perfect people and compare them with our flaws. The same thing was happening in Jesus’ day. God had given the Hebrews His Law and promised life to all who fulfilled its requirements. However, that Law was simply a picture of the perfect person, and since the Hebrews were not perfect they decided not to compare themselves with it rightly. As a matter of fact they decided to lower the requirements down to their level, just like lowering a basketball rim down so that you can dunk the ball. But when Jesus showed up He had news for them! The standard could not be lowered it was fixed, and not only that it was forever fixed, because it was based upon the perfect character of God. God is the Person, His Law is the Picture. This can be seen when Jesus uses the phrase “you have heard…but I say”. Every one of those phrases sounds something like this “you lowered the rim…but I am raising it back up to its fixed position” Let’s read from the King…
(Mathew 5:21-22) “You have heard that the ancients were told, ‘YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER’ and ‘Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.’ But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, ‘You good-for-nothing,’ shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.”
(Mathew 5:27-30) “You have heard that it was said, ‘YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY’; but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell.
(Mathew 5:20) “For I say to you that unless you righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.”
(Mathew 5:48) “Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”
People have always attempted to establish their own standard of righteousness (Romans 10:3), but it was the work of the Christ to remind us that God is our Creator and as His creatures we are under obligation to play by His tune not ours. And His standard is perfection in thought, word, and deed. From the outer actions to the inner motives perfection is required by God from all humanity.
2. The Standard was Failed.
Can you take only one side of a coin from someone? No, you may only want one side, but if you take the coin you get both. Likewise, if you have taken the first side of Jesus’ coin, namely that the standard is forever fixed, then the second side comes with that, namely that the standard was failed. Maybe your not sure that you have failed the standard of God’s Law, so lets take a brief moment to look at it. When you look at it, look at it like you would a mirror and see if you have any flaws…
a. Ever been angry with someone before? Ever called someone a “fool” before? If so according to Jesus you are guilty of violating the sixth commandment (Murder). Remember, it’s not just the outward shell of the act, but the inward condition of your heart. (Mathew 5:21-22)
b. Ever looked with lust at someone before? If so according to Jesus you are guilty of violating the seventh commandment (Adultery). Its not just the act of adultery that is sinful, but the intent of the heart is just as sinful. (Mathew 5:27-30)
c. Ever thought for a moment before about Mathew 5:48 ? According to Jesus you must have a perfection equal to that of God Himself!!!
Having seen yourself in truth through the mirror of God’s Law and, knowing that you have failed it what is your situation like? Well, you have two problems. One is that you are not perfect. Two is that because of your violations of God’s Law you are under its penalty. Therefore, in order for you as a wicked lawbreaker to be in right standing with God two things must take place. Your penalty must be paid and your perfection must be performed. The penalty paid keeps you from the prison of hell and the perfection performed opens the doors of heaven. But it cant be accomplished by you since you are already imperfect, for if you were to live perfectly from now until you die your past record would still be flawed. Who then can help you?
3. The Standard was Fulfilled.
Although there is absolutely no hope for you if you depend on yourself in anyway for being made right with God, there is an abundance of hope if you depend on Jesus Christ. According to His words you can escape hell and enter heaven because of what He did for you. Lets listen to Him explain…
(Mathew 5:17-18) “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.”
The most perilous word for you in these words is that the Law you violated resulting in your two problems is not going away. God’s requirement remains. The most promising word is that, although the Law is forever fixed Jesus came to fulfill it for us. This is how it works…
(2 Corinthians 5:21) “He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him”
About I Was Lied To
{ 64 comments… read them below or add one }
VERY GOOD!! Mr mystery writer!
Tina,
I appreciate your comments, especially the urge not to listen to men, but only to God. That was our aim in this article. We thought it would be a good idea to look at a full sermon by Christ, not men, in order to get the essential truth of the gospel. I believe the truths we stated in the article were clearly demonstrated to be found within that sermon. However, what we did not find was any requirement of baptism. You may initially disagree, but I would urge you to first consider the text for yourself (Mathew 5:1-7:29).
We are not unaware of our ability to err. Therefore, if you are able to find a requirement of baptism in Jesus’ sermon please let us know so that we may fix the problem you see. Nevertheless, if you cannot find a requirement of baptism in Jesus’ sermon we will continue to stand by the truths we stated and call all men everywhere to submit to them for their highest good and God’s glory.
Thanks.
Interesting. There is no mention of baptism in the sermon, but Jesus was baptised by John to fulfill all righteousness. I have always believed that baptism is a requirement to get to heaven, but that not all who are baptised will make it, just because they are baptised. We can’t earn our way to heaven with good works, but just try to get there without them.
First of all, I do want to say that this is a great website in that it provokes one to think with his own head and search out his own salvation rather than just satisfy themself with what they have been taught. The bible warns of false teaching, false profits, and wolves in sheeps clothing yet everyone automatically assumes that their own belief system is exempt from this category. The bible says that there will be those that have a form of Godliness but deny it’s power (2 Ti 3:5). So if you honestly want to apply truth to your personal faith, you must consider this very profound scripture. (Discomforting is it to my soul that such a large portion of our christian society denies entire portions of the word and some go so far as to explain away the ‘power’ revealed therein. Note that the bible specifically warns against those who ‘addeth to’ or ‘taketh away’ of the words of this book therefore be alert for anyone or any system that would produce new scripture not included in the original Holy writ, or would deny or explain away that which is given us for our own salvation and/or edification.) When I look around, I see plenty of various and yet seperate belief systems and am discouraged by the division that I find. If I were to consider this scripture along with the other ones pointed out in this site, I would ultimately ask myself “What power are they refering to?”. Upon further reading, I learn of spiritual gifts that are given by God to his church and quickly realize that the mentioned gifts would no doubt produce signs, wonders, and miracles; the same ones the bible states would be associated with the true church. With my limited intelligence I can deduce that these signs, wonders, and miracles would be prevalent in the church that teaches the absolute truth, the same truth that this article refers to. My heart yearns for the fullness of God’s presence and so being, I do not want to be counted among those that “perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved” and I am also not so presumptuous as to assume that my current knowledge of God is pure and perfect. I will not only take into myself the message of this article but I will also look to align myself with others (a church) that is in the favor of God evident by the ‘power’ displayed therein.
As for the subject of baptism, there is enough evidence present for me to assume it is at the very least an extremely positive, if not essential, event. I have decided that on judgement day, I would rather my answer to ‘The Big Guy’ be that I had been baptized even if it was not required, than to discover that it was in fact an essential event and yet I disregarded it….or put another way, I would rather it be that I did but didnt need to…instead of didnt but did need to.
There is one bit of scripture that is often ignored and/or proper importance is not placed on it. Peter, who I should remind readers was given the keys to the kindom and become Christ’s first leading spokesman, was asked a pivotal question. Remember also that it is in Acts that the Church of the living God was created after His death, burial, and resurrection. The question asked was “what must we do to be saved?” to which Peter replied, “Repent AND be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for remission of your sins and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost”. Now here I go assuming again but I would think that someone that has received the gift of the Holy Ghost could probably consider themself saved right? Well on that assumption, considering what Peter just got finished saying, I would no doubt get in line at the water trough awaiting my turn to baptized in the same manner that Jesus himself was. This without mentioning that the bible states over and over again that the apostles baptized people everywhere even going so far as REbaptizing some that they believed had been baptized incorrectly previously. There is no doubt in my mind that this immersion in water is VERY important if not crucial….even if it is a only a sign of obedience. I’d rather be safe than sorry.
May God bless all who read this,
Scott Droddy
I am not surprised that it was Mr. Mercer that would have something to add to what I shared previously. When I go back and read I find multiple entries from you, Mr. Mercer, the first of which is very aggressive, accusing, and confrontational. From there you seem to concentrate your energies so earnestly on disproving the issue of baptism as a MUST that it becomes very obvious, psychologically speaking of course, that you struggle with the issue within yourself. My opinion is born from a very basic pschological observation or your responses.
Now I ask you to reread my previous entry, but more slowly. Now I want to blow your mind! I’m now going to lay out the scripture that you so insistently proclaim does not exist. Turn in your bible to the book of John…chapter 3. Jesus has just been accused of being from God because of the miraulous signs that he performed…it is specifically acknowledged that the signs and wonders would not be possible if God not be with him. Sorta reminds me of what I wrote earlier huh? Jesus himself then declares, “I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again”; to which Nicodemus then asks for clarification as to the term ‘born again’. And Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the spirit”.
This is pretty plain to me but just in case it is unclear to anyone, Jesus says that one MUST be born again to see the kingdom of God (heaven) and then says that one MUST be born (again) of the water (baptism) and of the spirit (holy ghost) to be classified as BORN AGAIN. We have now traveled full circle for earlier I quoted Acts 2:38 as saying “And Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the Remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.” Repentance + Baptism = Holy Ghost (pass to heaven)
Now before you panic Mr. Mercer, if someone GENUINELY repents and is saved through faith just moments before his/her demise, I do not know for sure but I would think that God understands that it was impossible for them under the circumstances. After all, he did show mercy to the thief on the cross didnt he. But I MUST add (I’m beginning to get into the word MUST!!! lol) that if someone believes baptism to be a crucial and sacred act of obedience as you and I have both agreed, then their desire to please God will emerge victorious and questioning baptism will not even enter their mind. Anyone that plays down these things are in direct conflict with the word of God..plain and simple.
May God bless all who read this.
Scott Droddy
Matt. 28:19 “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost”
Great responses Mr. Droddy. The only criticism (if you would call it that) is that you used the phrase, “better safe than sorry,” and seemed to waver a little just because Jesus didn’t say specifically “be baptised or go to hell.” There is ample evidence that baptism is a necessary ordance for salvation and your responses covered it quite well.
No where in the scriptures does it say that Jesus used the bathroom and I’ll bet there are those who will argue that he never did because the scriptures didn’t say so.
on second thought I read this wrong, stupid me. Never mind my first comment.
So let me get this straight, if Jesus wouldnt have been baptized by John the Baptist would he still have been considered the son of God? If hadnt been baptized before he died on the cross would have gone to Hell? Would he have been like every other ordinary man? Further more if baptism was necessary for salvation, why then did the Apostle Paul fail to say such in Romans 10:9 & 13 In fact, in most all of Pauls writings he makes a clear point to the spiritual condition of man, not so much ANY physical requirments for entrance into heaven? And did John the Baptist not proclaim that Christ baptizes with the Holy Ghost? Why didnt he mention water? Why is it that John the Baptist was not Baptized? Did he go to Hell? Did Jesus lie when he told the unbaptized thief on the cross that he would see him in Paradise? I think my dear brother Marc covered the rest rather well.
You are also (Mr. Droddy) in danger of becoming that which you claim every other man ought not to (”everyone automatically assumes that their own belief system is exempt from this category.”). You are under the same burden of responsibility as everyone else you lay your “category” on. I caution you to not become that which you warn others against. Espacially if you wish to bring spiritual gifts into the picture. Let me know when you find a church that has this, “power” that you speak of, because according to my Bible, none such exist.
I apologize if I seemed to waiver, even a little, in earlier statement. There is no doubt in my mind, but to evaluate both sides of a discussion properly, I feel that one should do their best to approach the subject from a truly neutral and openminded point of view. What you perceived as waivering was me in my open minded state as I reanalyzed the subject matter. But thank you so much for the compliment.
I have obviously touched on a sore spot in this discussion for I am now being teamed up on. I cannot help but think of an analogy that my grandfather taught me many years ago. He said to me “Son, when you throw a rock at a pack of dogs…the one that yelps is usually the one that got hit”. I am sorry if I have offended anyone for it was not my intentions. I merely meant to respond to the questions asked.
What is most obvious when I read others responses is that proof in scripture was requested AND PROVIDED in accordance with the word. One response to this scripture was an attempt to ‘take away’ or ‘explain away’ the meaning of the verse. How can you say that the word ‘water’ meant anything other than what it is in its literal sense? It was said the ‘water’ was symbolic of spiritual cleansing and yet the verse very clearly differentiates between ‘the water’ and ‘the spirit’. I repeat, Jesus says that a man must be born again of the water (pause….take in the word) and of the Spirit (pause again…realize that these are two seperate subjects..water being one, spirit being the other). I do agree that a spiritual cleansing (rebirth everyone) is required as is stated, however, I am inclined to agree that if part of this verse is required then the whole thing is required therefore I must remain in the stance of a required rebirth of the water AND spirit as is obvious here. Good try though.
Mr. Arnold, I am sorry but somewhere you must realize that Jesus himself was baptized and said that it must be done to fulfill ALL righteousness. You must also realize (basic studying required) that before the intended plan of salvation could be put in force, a DEATH, BURIAL, AND RESURRECTION was needed. C’mon guys, this is the essense of the ‘gospel’ and what the bible tells us over and over again is to be believed in to be saved (as some teach…I am remaining neutral for the sake of this discussion). Therefore, He had to die, be buried, and be resurrected and even at the cross this had not been established, thus his last words at the cross “It is finished”.
Mr. Arnold, I do not even feel that much of a response to your opinion on ‘power’ is required. You made yourself painfully vulnerable all by yourself. It has already been pointed out that there will be those that have a form of godliness but deny the ‘power’. I will simply copy and paste your very last sentence….
Let me know when you find a church that has this, “power” that you speak of, because according to my Bible, none such exist.
To see you type such a statement literally saddens me and pokes a whole through my heart. I have witnessed this power Mr. Arnold. I will not mention any denomination here because my spirit is telling me that you are on the attack and will bash it. All I have to say is open up your own mind to truth and righteousness and search as I did. My spiritual journey took me through multiple faith systems until I finally progressed to where I am now. My soul yearned for more and my spirit told me that there was more so I sought God with all my heart until I found His presense. His gifts ARE active and abundant in churches all around you Mr. Arnold, just as they should be, as it is written.
I have approached this subject from a unbiased stance and shared my inner thoughts after much prayer BEFORE each response. Everything I have shared are things that are in black and white right there in the good book which is available for ALL to read. Responsed back to me are beginning to get aggressive and accusing therefore this will probably be my last entry. I love you all and it is my prayer that everyone seeks God continually in their journey through life. He offers us so much, but we deny so much.
May God bless all who read this,
Scott Droddy
Only have a moment to respond, but first I would like to wish everyone a Happy Easter and pray that today (and everyday) your thoughts are of the Savior and His life.
Second, again well done Mr. Droddy, I really enjoyed your response. I’m sure you will pray ernestly before you seriously consider this your last response. I would also submit to you to consider the power of your comments and the possible influence (for good) they may have. Obviously, the Lord allows us to make our own decisions, and to consider His words and act accordingly as we see fit. And so it goes. My one prayer is that each of us have a sincere desire to learn and share the gospel.
Attack? Bash? Nothing I have said has had any weight of animosity or attack to it. Further more, just as you are entitled to your opinion I am to mine. Its not my fault it is shared by my dear brother Marc (who I have personally known for some time now). If I had walked into this with people who shared your opinion and not mine, I would be the man that was “teamed up” on. There really is no room to cry cheat on here. Further more I fail to see how lining up a churches doctrine with Scripture is bashing. Faith without works is dead, but faith without true doctrine is blindness.
The word water can mean several different things when the American people have passed it from 10+ different versions and entire different language (Greek). Taking ever word in the Bible for its literal english meaning is a BIG translation and study error. That is also partly why spiritual gifts are seriously missinterpreted. Any knowledgable Proffesor (without some agenda) well tell you go to back to the original language that the Bible was written. And that usaully goes for any book.
Also I never said Jesus wasnt baptized. Those were hypothetical questions. Would Jesus still have been God’s son if he wasnt?. Would he have gone to Heaven? As for the rest concerning Christ, no one is arguing you on that.
Making myself vunerable was the WHOLE POINT to engage the discussion, and appearently it worked.
As far as the power and your openmindness through many faiths, did Christ not say, “because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.” Hm…
As far as the gifts go, you might want to study up who the gifts were applied to, how long they would last, and the cotext in which Paul says the would go. Just because its in the New Testament, doesnt mean it applies to us.
A friend of my pastor at the age of eighty saw his brother one night. He woke up to see him standing there smiling at him. He’d been dead for over twenty years now. He called in his granddaughter and asked if she could see him. She said no, he said then lets go to the hospital. He had a cancer that made him hallucinate. His brother wasnt there.
Experiences dont count for ANYTHING. If its not scriptural then its probably not of God. There are other powers in this world looking to decieve anyway they can.
I have another question about “What does God require for a person to go to Heaven?” In the end statement a person could get the impression that prayer is not an essential part of the gospel. I believe that prayer is essential for our salvation, since it is a way for us to communicate with God. Could you help me out on what is meant. (Sorry for the delayed comments, but I don’t get much casual computer time, hopefully I will be able to make some extended comments in the future.)
I cannot help but wonder why the persistent desire to discredit the sacredness and necessity of rebirth by water by baptizm as well as the attempt to disprove the existence of God’s presense in the form of signs and wonders as a result of the spiritual gifts thoroughly documented in the infallible Word of almighty God. The only logical answer is that “someone” NEEDS to accomplish this feat for their own psyche…BECAUSE…they have not been baptized themself and/or belong to an organization that does not practice baptizm as it is explained in the bible, neither are there signs, wonders, and miracles in existence within this “faith system” therefore every attempt is made to explain away the very existence of them(it is human nature to not believe that which you have not seen with your own eyes and/or do not understand). We are warned of this more than once in the bible by the way.
Whatever the motive, this whole argument of mistranslations over the years causing misinterpretations of portions of scripture is tired and lame. In my years of deep study and wholehearted search for God’s presense, this is the stance that is always taken when one has nothing left to stand on. When someone cannot effective prove their theory, they consistently resort to arguing that the word or phrase has been mistranslated.
However, I accept the challenge for during my journey in search for the deeper places in God, I have managed to acquire a respectable collection of resourses for my own personal benefit. The bible tells us to study to show ourselves worthy. I guess I took that pretty seriously. Anyways, the language that was used by Jesus and his apostles, as well as the rest of that region at that time, was Aramaic…not Greek. Greek was becoming popular during that time period but it was not primary language of the Jews. The old testament we know was written in Aramaic but the new testament was first written in greek so there is no dispute there. Now the good part is that the orginal greek recognized water as (drum roll please……..) yea, you guessed it WATER! As in the wet stuff! Wow, thats incredible! And it goes deeper. The original greek text also has an interesting definition for baptism. The Greek word behind the verb “baptize” is baptizo. The Greek word behind the noun “baptism” is baptisma. A study of the Greek word for “baptism” yields the same conclusion. “Baptize” and its related forms was not an English word, originally. It was transferred into English directly from the New Testament Greek word, baptidzo. One may consult any standard lexicon of the Greek New Testament and learn that baptidzo means to dip, plunge, submerge or immerse when used literally. If this Greek word were translated, rather than merely transliterated, the New testament would read “immerse” everywhere it presently reads, “baptize.”
I also submit to you this interesting bit of information. It was located within the records of a particular faith that does not even practice baptism. I cannot help but wonder at what point did they decide to eliminate this practice.
Catholic Dictionary: “In Apostolic Times the body of the baptized person was immersed, for St. Paul looks on the immersion as typifying the burial with Christ, and speaks of baptism as a bath.”
Just so we are still on the same page here, I will quote (AGAIN) this very direct, important and uncomplicated scriptures. John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verlily, (truthfully) I say unto thee (you), Except a man (or woman) be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. John 3:5 “Jesus answered, Verily, verily(truthfully), I say unto thee (you), Except a man (or woman) be born of water and of spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
I refered to Jesus himself being baptized to make a point dear friend. If he thought it a requirement for himself, is it absurd to think that it would also be requirement for all others?
I feel pretty certain that I have said enough on this subject at this point. I do appreciate your persistence though, however misquided it may be.
I find it very entertaining that you quoted this particular portion of scripture…”blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed”…because the it is very obvious that you do not believe in what you have not seen. It is apparent to me that you have never seen someone crippled for years rise up and walk again; you have never seen someone blind or deaf have their vision or hearing restored instantaneously; you have never seen cancer literally disappear from someones body overnight; you have never witnessed the glory of God hover over a weeping and worshiping crowd; you have never been battling a raging storm in your life and be confronted by a man of God who sees and names all of your obstacles and with a simple prayer and laying on of hands helps to pray peace and comfort back into your soul; you have never been slain by the pure power of God and/or been “as someone drunk” under His influence….I know you have never experienced these aspects of the power of God because you do not believe they exist. I have experienced and/or seen each of these things and many more. I was like you at one point in my life. I was full of myself, I was judgemental, I was arrogant, I doubted the power of God, I was miserable, I discredited Godly things that I did not understand, I believed that since I had never seen it in the church that I attended then it didnt exist, I was often vicious in my attacks, I had no concept of the damage I incurred on the kingdom of God with my rantings and was so confident that what I said was right that I did not fear reprocussion from God. Thank God I was knocked off my horse and I opened my heart to God for him to teach me and show me His will and lead me farther into his truth.
Dear Mr. James, nowhere in the bible does it say that all gifts, sign, wonders, and miracles disappeared with the last written words of the bible. That is merely another fraud perpetrated by certain factions to discredit that which is unavailable within their realm and therefore beyond their knowledge. I understand that you will now attempt to prove your point with scriptures that you will no doubt take out of context with claims of alterior meanings as well as claims of misinterpretations over the years in the 10+ different versions of written word….but it is entertaining as I have said. I do smile each time I read your responses as you might smile at a little child that keeps tripping over his ball.
If you would seek a deeper realm of Him, you shall find a deeper realm with Him. If you ask for a closer walk with God, you shall receive a closer walk God. It is my prayer that all who read these words will take a moment and say a prayer to your Creater, your God…and ask for these things. I say again, He has so much for us, yet we deny so much.
May God bless all who read this,
Scott Droddy
I would like to apologize if it appeared to you that I was exalting myself. I thought it was evident that I am merely encouraging anyone and everyone to seek God with their whole heart and to not be satisfied. I assume that you interpret my honesty in my admition to my earnest search for God as well as the many wonderful things that I have been blessed to witness as “self exalting”. I even admit to witnessing healings and yet you mock and ridicule that claim. Your limited knowledge grasps for a shred of understanding and comes up empty. I am not the only one that has witnessed such things. There are many and many of those are much nearer to you than you want to believe. You pass them on the streets every single day. I am not special. I am just a lowly man that loves God and desires all of Him that I can be graced with….and I am mocked for this? I know James, or you, have not witnessed all of those things that I mentioned only because you dont believe in them. Back to basic psychology here. If you had experienced it then you would not doubt it. That was not a self exalting statement. You two ‘dear brothers’ are extremely entertaining!
Also, I have yet to write an entry without making a plee to sinners and/or christians alike to seek Him so I fully understand the purpose of this webpage. Have you? Or have you obsessed with proving me wrong? Better go back and check.
As for the other question asked pertaining to prayer. I believe it is essential to remain close to God. Paul admonishes us to die out daily, which means repent every single day for any wrongs or potential sins we may have commited. To do this we must pray. Jesus says to ask and it shall be given…I have trouble understanding how we can ask without prayer. I also think of it this way. If you are married, do you talk to your spouse? How good and close of a relationship would it be if you never communicated. It is in my mind that the more we communicate with God, the closer we become. There is one part of prayer that is often overlooked in my opinion however. It is the listening part. So many of us, myself included, may find a few minutes here or there and we will consume that entire time continually speaking our own thoughts and requests. Once we run out of things to say or ask for, or once our time is up, we simply end our prayer……but we have not listened to what He might have to say back! I challenge everyone to start making twice the time in your day and once you are finished with speaking to God, just sit there and listen. You will find that He speaks to you much more than you ever realized and you will soon discover your relationship with Him growing beyond what you thought it could. He has so much to tell us if we would only listen….close out the world, turn off all the other voices, and listen to Him.
Again, to everyone, never allow yourself to get comfortable for close behind comfort is laziness. Seek God with your whole heart and seek all that He may impart on you. Do not doubt something simply because you havent experienced it and do not understand it. Try all things according to the scriptures. I ask of you to set a goal for yourself to build a stronger than ever relationship with Him starting now.
God bless you all,
Scott Droddy
To arejay:
A person Does not necessarily have to “pray” in order to Confess that Christ is Lord and be saved. Its more so, the acknowledgment of who we are to who God/Christ/HolyGhost is. And that we are in violation to God’s very being just by being sinners. (Book of Romans) Praying when we acknowledge who Christ is, is more like… tradition. But not a nonscriptural one.
To Scott:
WOW, I honestly had hoped this wouldnt have flown over your head, but apparently, it has. For starters, you neither know me, my church, my faith, nor what we practice and have the AUDACITY to make imature assumptions about and of them. Secondly, the only reason this is persistent is because you allow it to keep going into circles. The word “water” has already been explained from its original GREEK WORDING. Which by the way can be figurativly as well.
“this is the stance that is always taken when one has nothing left to stand on.”
Look, I realize you must have done some extensive research, but you can get off your high horse. I havent even presented a case. I have nothing to stand on because I havent even built anything in the first place! And clearly this discussion isnt over so what exactly posessed you to make such an assumption? Your arrogance consumes you.
“The original greek text also has an interesting definition for baptism. The Greek word behind the verb “baptize” is baptizo. The Greek word behind the noun “baptism” is baptisma. A study of the Greek word for “baptism” yields the same conclusion. “Baptize” and its related forms was not an English word, originally. It was transferred into English directly from the New Testament Greek word, baptidzo. One may consult any standard lexicon of the Greek New Testament and learn that baptidzo means to dip, plunge, submerge or immerse when used literally. If this Greek word were translated, rather than merely transliterated, the New testament would read “immerse” everywhere it presently reads, “baptize.” ”
I agree 100% That the same doctrine from which my church teaches and believes.
As far as your Jesus and baptism scriptures:
Eze 36:
24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25 ¶ Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Huh isnt that strange, Ezekiel was a prophet who foretold the coming of Jesus. Isnt it also ironic that the word for water in Greek can also be a figure of speech. Lets connect the dots…..Bingo you got. If it is also imparative that water baptism is needed for salvation why is it so rarely mentioned when sitting next to the surrender of the spirit. Also in case you failed to read it. In the same 3 chapter of John, it says on atleast three seperate ocasions, after verse 5, that if a man believes on Christ he shall be saved.
And ONCE AGAIN. why did the Apostles fail time and time again to mention it in their letters to the church!?
“If he thought it a requirement for himself, is it absurd to think that it would also be requirement for all others?”
uh, no.
“I do appreciate your persistence though, however misquided it may be.”
I DONT appreciate your arrogance, however persistent it maybe.
“It is apparent to me that you have never seen someone crippled for years rise up and walk again; you have never seen someone blind or deaf have their vision or hearing restored instantaneously; you have never seen cancer literally disappear from someones body overnight; you have never witnessed the glory of God hover over a weeping and worshiping crowd; you have never been battling a raging storm in your life and be confronted by a man of God who sees and names all of your obstacles and with a simple prayer and laying on of hands helps to pray peace and comfort back into your soul; you have never been slain by the pure power of God and/or been “as someone drunk” under His influence….I know you have never experienced these aspects of the power of God because you do not believe they exist. I have experienced and/or seen each of these things and many more.”
Like i stated earlier, Experiences dont mean anything. If its not scriptural then its not godly. There are other forces in this world in case you have forgotten.
“I was like you at one point in my life. I was full of myself, I was judgemental, I was arrogant, I doubted the power of God, I was miserable, I discredited Godly things that I did not understand, I believed that since I had never seen it in the church that I attended then it didnt exist, I was often vicious in my attacks, I had no concept of the damage I incurred on the kingdom of God with my rantings and was so confident that what I said was right that I did not fear reprocussion from God.”
EXCUSE ME!? You sir do not no me. DO NOT for a second pressume to know what I am like or what my my relation to God is. You are making your arrogance known!!
You have yet to use scripture to back up your belief that those gifts actually still exist.
“I do smile each time I read your responses as you might smile at a little child that keeps tripping over his ball.”
Are you my father? My God, my creator!? Do not place yourself above the ability to be wrong! You damage your intellect and humility, you look upon a man who does not see the same way you do and place yourself above him! you have made this discussion very discomforting, not with any godly knowledge or understanding but with arrogance and haughty persistence. You presume to know scripture so well yet have used to to back up several claims. You have been very ungentlemen like. You sir should pray to keep your thoughts to yourself where some of them belong!
I have no desire to continue a conversation with you. You sacrifice your humility and manner for persistence regardless of what you have proved. (which is very little). Forget this, your free now to claim your victory and talk about how you discredited someone else, since you have the audacity to say so much more.
Thank you Marc for your support.
I have been following this conversation for several days. Thanks whoever you are that started this website because it has gotten me to realize that maybe I did was denying some of God like Mr. Droddy mentioned. I am catholic and I am not ashamed to admit that it just don’t feel right. There are so many things that they teach that IS NOT biblical and actually is the complete opposite of my bible. And another odd thing is that we are always made to me scared to doubt our bogus beliefs and we are attacked if we question things out loud, just like these two guys have been attacking Mr. Droddy.
Scott, whoever you are, God bless you! The more y’all talked back and forth, the more you made sense. There is now a small group of us that have decided to get together once a week and pray together and seek these “closer places God” that you have found! You have inspired us sir! You were the one that was attacked and you reacted humbly and godly. The more you were right and them wrong, the more angry they got. I am a school teacher so I recognized their reaction for what it was.
Thank you sir for relighting something in me that died long ago and for being a great example of how children of God should act I wish there was a way to email you directly so that I could write to you but I don’t know how. Can you please post another comment and leave us your address? Our group would like to have you come and talk to us!
Thanks again site creator too! You are the one that started all of this! It is a good thing you have done!
Hello all! I’ve been wanting to write for a couple of days but just havent. My spirit finally nudged me to write this morning when I see the two guys getting more and more vicious toward Mr. Droddy. I dont have the gift of gab like you do Scott so I probable wont write alot but I just wanted you to know that there is someone out here that stands on your side! I wasnt sure at first but that was because I had to read your comments a couple of times to understand them.haha! The more I read, the more I felt God’s holy spirit talking to my heart! It was really great.
Anyways, the only attitude I have witnessed is the ones of Mr. Mercer and Mr. James! You guys should be ashamed of yourself acting like you do and saying such bad and untrue things and then accusing others of lying.
Mr anonymous or whoever started this page, can you make another spot somewhere so we can discuss these powers that were talked about? I have heard of God moving in these special ways but never seen it with my own eyes. I’m tired of listening to people who say it doesnt exist when I know it does I just dont know where. I think that if God is performing wonderful miracles in a church then that church must be doing something right. I’m tired of empty religion! Keep this site going Mr. “Writer”!
I have a question about “What does God require for a person to go to Heaven?” In the end statement a person could get the impression that prayer is not an essential part of the gospel. I believe that prayer is essential for our salvation, since it is a way for us to communicate with God. Could I get a comment from the person who wrote the article? Also would really like to hear from James, Marc, and Scott on this. I do have one request. Please start with a “yes” or “no” . . . I do, or I don’t . . . . My understanding of the gospel is somewhat simple, so I would appreciate this declaration at the beginning so I can follow your statements. Thanks.
Whats up? I just wanted to tell Bro. Droddy that he rocks! Those guys did not hardly make any sense and their arguments were very shallow. It was like they were grasping at straws. They seem like very angry people too! Stacey, you were right about one thing. The more they kept writing, the more they lost ground with Scott, and then the madder they seemed to get! I was enjoying them get put in their place actually!
I also hope to see mr droddy leave a way to reach him. I have questions in my mind that I have always had but never really asked and I dont really wanna share them on here cause I really dont want to read the distorted views of what mr mercer or mr arnold would have. I think I was like Cindy. I felt something when I read his comments.
Way to go with the site too! I saw it advertised in the newspaper and got very curious! I’ve read my bible more in the last 2 or 3 days than ever!
First of all, thank some of you for the nice words! I never intended to hurt anyone’s feelings or make them angry and lash out the way they did and now I find myself remorseful. I simply wanted to provoke thought in them in order to open their minds and hearts to that which they obviously did not understand nor believe in as a result. I admit that I found myself a little offended more than once as one or both attempted to persuade me that certain aspects of faith and christianity did not exist…maybe I got a little condescending and for that I have much regret. I have a tendency to get defensive when someone tries to add to or take away from the Word of God! I could not keep my peace in the face of the debasing that was taking place in front of my eyes as well as all others that were potentially reading. I am sorry if I offended anyone or disappointed my God through my actions.
I plead all readers to search your own souls. If you find that you do not believe in the sacredness and importance of baptism, nor do you feel that prayer is an essential part of your salvation, nor do you believe that God still heals and works miracles in the lives of those who are righteous and love Him above all else, then I beg you to consider the state of being that you are existing in. Contrary to what many people may proclaim, we are not allowed to pick the manner in which we would like to be saved. We do have the advantage of choice in these times as we have the ability to go out and shop religions and choose the one that we like the most or is easiest to adhere to, HOWEVER, such is not the case with salvation for it does not mold itself to our whims and desires.
I must say that I am not the authority on all things religious and completely acknowledge that I am nowhere near perfect but I will share my thoughts with anyone who requests them. If I can be of any help to anyone then praise God! I am very flattered. My email address is my name as it appears on my comments but rather than a space between the Scott and Droddy, use a (.)…at yahoo. I am unsure if this message would have posted had I typed out my email address so I apologize for the “riddle”.
Arejay…..I will start another post to give my thoughts on your question so that I may do so in the manner in which you have requested.
May God bless all who read this,
Scott Droddy
Yes….I believe that prayer IS an essential part of salvation. The reason is fairly simple. Although prayer itself is not named as an ingredient to salvation, one would have a very difficult time asking God’s forgiveness of past sins (repenting) without praying. Prayer is communication with God. It doesnt matter if your lips are moving, or if you are on your knees , or if your eyes are closed. If you ask God’s forgiveness for your sins, you are praying. Being that you must repent, then I just do not see how you could accomplish the act without praying. Like I said, prayer is indirectly mandatory to be saved and make it to heaven. The next thing I would like to add is that once you have received your salvation, your next task is to maintain it. Paul recommends that we repent of our sins daily and if we followed his advice we would be praying daily. Just because we have been born again of the water and of the spirit does not mean we are now flawless and perfect. Our nature is still within us and thus we will sin throughout our life’s journey. We should all endeaver to have as close a relationship with God as we can achieve and I must say that it would be extremely difficult, if not impossible, to do without prayer. I cannot imagine a true walk with God without a consistent prayer life Mr. Arejay. A christian walk would be a shallow walk indeed with the absence of prayer. There may be those that would split hairs and claim that it is not mentioned as a necessity of salvation and in that they would be correct, but consider what I have written and attempt to imagine how you would accomplish the mandatory requirements without praying….I guess you can say it is mandatory by reason of default
I was honored that you requested my opinion and I sincerely hope that my thoughts have helped you rather than disappoint you. It appears to me, when I read your post, that we agree on this subject already.
God Bless,
Scott Droddy
My question is for Mr.Droddy…you say that “prayer is essential for salvation” and it seems that what you are standing on is in order to repent you must pray!! However, unless my knowledge is wrong, the word repent means to turn from your sins to GOD!! Therefore, the prayer ‘for’ salvation would not be an essential, but I do agree that a true believer will pray because he/she will love the LORD and have a relationship with HIM. And also on baptism I am unclear on why that is an essential, I know that you 3 have been writting back and forth on it, however if someone is unable to be baptized like there is not water to be immersed in or they die before they are able to be baptized or they are too ill to be baptized. Dont misunderstand me here though, I have been baptized, and I do believe a believer will want to be baptized but I do not see where you can say it is an essential.
Mr. mercer, I have to say that I dont understand why you keep going! You continue to try to insult someone that that has proven very easily to have a more realistic understanding of the bible! You challenge him for more scripture but when I go back and look, I find where he provided scripture. Once or twice he refered to biblical things without providing the scripture reference but it took only a little bit of effort and a concordance on my part to find what he was talking about. So from what I can tell, when someone specifies the verse, you twist it and distort it like you did before by trying to say it means something different, and then when proven wrong like you were, you basically then claimed that it lost its meaning in translations over the years. Basically, you discredited the bible!!! Then after that, you act like you know all these verses but you try to act like Mr Droddy is making stuff up. It’s funny I found what he was talking about pretty easily and it matched what he said. Can I point out to you that it is pointless for you to keep giving your scriptures when you keep twisting their meanings. I dont know about everyone else but I skip most of what you write because of the junk you keep saying. The scary part of all of it and I cant believe noone has pointed it out yet is that you really believe the things that you are saying. I’m not surprised that you reduced the importance of prayer in your last comment either. Its par for the course with you! I’m just gonna say one more thing and then I’m logging off here for good. It is because of people like you and your other friend that things are the way they are in this country. Religion is losing its importance and it is plain to me the kind of people that is to blame. So called christians that can so easily explain away things and twist scriptures to make them mean what they want! Oh yea, and scott has by far showed much more of a love for God and love of people and you showed none until the last time you wrote and then even stooped to imply HE was strange! you are weak sir and your efforts are too little too late!
Where do you get off calling me strange in a way that implies my faith?!
“I find it very strange that A child of God would come in and be on guard, or attack brothers that are using scripture for answer and be to the aid of one who in the last 3 or 4 post has yet to use one single verse of Gods word.”
All I did was voice my opinion by agreeing with the person that was making the most sense and didnt seem to have some alterior motive. You do not have the right to call anyone else strange when it is you that has the “strange” beliefs. It is you that switches the meanings of words to fit your agenda. You are accusing Mr. Droddy of not providing enough scripture! I find that very strange Mr. Mercer because the scripture was already there, he didnt write it! LOOK IT UP YOURSELF like anonymousJay! Mr. Droddy gives us enough information to do a basic search and find what he is talking about. It is strange that your “argument” now rests on the fact that he did not provide the reference scripture a couple of times. You accuse people of never providing reference but yet I very plainly see where he HAS provided scripture AND broke the verse down in parts AND explained it literally while YOU cried fowl! But I am strange? Now I see that you have began inserting quotes from some guy that DID NOT WRITE the bible. Is he the leader of the gathering of which you obviously belong to that doesnt believe in prayer, or baptism, of the power of God?
Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; (Col. 3:12)
Thank you for answering my question. I, too believe prayer is essential in the respect that it is our main form of correspondence with God. Will prayer in itself get you to heaven. I think not. Can we get there without it, I think not, also. I also appreciate any views that do not agree with this. Another thought I would like to share. As I was reading all these great comments, I couldn’t help but think that each of us hold strong views as to what we believe, and I think (and hope) that they are all sincere, and we are all looking to become better Christians. One of the hard things to do in this world today is to be patient and long suffering with others who hold opposing views. When there is contention, it is hard for the Spirit to accompany these conversations.
I would like to hear the administrators intent regarding prayer in the above article. Thank you.
WHY DO YOU THINK THAT YOU ARE SAVED? because the BIBLE says so? or because man says so?
Forget about tradition. Why do you believe what you believe about salvation? Is it because it’s what you’ve been taught all of your life, or is because you have read it for yourself in the Bible? Don’t take someone’s word for it and if it’s not in the Bible, do not believe it! Salvation is too important – eternity is too long – and Hell is too hot to take a man’s word for it. What if I were to tell you with 100% certainty that it is NOT BIBLICAL that Jesus Christ is anyone’s “personal Lord and Savior”? It is also NOT BIBLICAL that anyone would pray a “sinner’s prayer” for salvation. Look into it. These are manmade TRADITIONS and are not scripturally sound. These come from otherwise sincere and earnest Bible believers who misunderstand and misinterpret a few particular passages of scripture, and thereby misunderstand God’s requirement for salvation. If you have been taught that you must “confess with your mouth and believe in your heart that Jesus is raised from the dead and that He is Lord” in order to be saved, you have been misinformed. That scripture, Romans 10:9-10, is indeed true. However, it is not the plan of salvation. Taken out of context and standing alone, it sounds pretty good. However, if you read the entire chapter you know that this is not spoken to sinners seeking salvation, but to people who are already saved, telling them that the Jews must FIRST BELIEVE and CONFESS that Jesus is Lord in order to be saved. This is not a plan of salvation, that is plain to see.
There are a few criteria for salvation that are without controvery, absolute. They are scriptural, cannot be argued, and for the most part, are accepted by almost every Christian denomination:
1. We know that in order to be saved, we must repent! (Matthew 9:13, Mark 1:15, Luke 24:47)
2. Jesus said that in order to be saved under the New Covenant or New Testament, one has to be baptized. (John 3:5, Mark 16:16)
3. We know that God’s children must be filled with His spirit (or Holy Spirit, or Holy Ghost). (John 3:5, John 14:26)
The only passage of scripture that meets all 3 of these criteria is in the Book of Acts, chaper 2, verse 38. At that time the Apostle Peter is preaching the first Christian sermon in response to the question of what the attendees should do to make ammends for what they had done to Jesus Christ. They realized they were sinners and needed to know how to make things right. They asked “Peter and the rest of the apostles” what to do and Peter responded this way: Acts 2:38 “Then Peter said unto them Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sin and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost”. He went on to tell them in verse 40 to “save themselves”. If you read Acts 2:38-40 together, it becomes apparent that these were instructions for any and all sinners who wished to be saved. The gift of the Holy Ghost spoke of by Paul is called a gift simply because it is free! It’s not just an extra blessing that some people receive for being open to it, but it is a necessary part of the Biblical plan of salvation.
I’m sure you have more questions about God’s true plan of salvation, particularly about the correlation between Acts 2:38 and Matthew 28:19. Acts 2:38 does not disagree with Matthew 28:19 – it fulfills it! You see, Jesus Christ IS the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. Matthew 28:19 is not a script; it is a prophetic word about who Jesus is. Every single baptism that took place in the New Testament was performed in the name of Jesus – look it up, you’ll see that it’s so. Never once is a person baptized in the name of the titles of God. Furthermore, the term “Trinity” is not found in the Bible ANYWHERE. This is a teaching of man. I can prove the fullness of the Godhead is in Jesus to you. In Matthew 28:19 Jesus says “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Have you ever stopped to ask yourself “What is the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost”? You know the name of the Son, and you may or may not know the Old Testament names of the Father, but what’s the name of the Holy Ghost? If the father has many names, which one is Matthew 28:19 referring to? Confusing, huh? The reason Jesus worded this commission this way was because He wanted to illustrate a point that is absolutely necessary for ever believer to understand. The point is that Jesus is God! (I have tons of scripture to back this up!) Jesus Christ is the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost because they are all the same!! That’s the mystery of God – the God himself visited man on earth as Jesus and abides within redeemed men as the Holy Ghost. Need more proof? Read Acts chapter 2 again. Notice that the convicted men asked Peter “and the rest of the apostles” (v.27) what to do. That means that Matthew was standing right there too! (Acts 1:13 specifically says Matthew is present) Had Matthew 28:19 meant something other than to baptize in the name of Jesus Christ, which is what Peter explained, Matthew surely would have spoken up – the issue of salvation is too important! If you continue reading the Book of Acts, you will see that there were times when the apostles didn’t agree and they had to have council to confirm what the Word of God truly was so that everyone would teach and do the proper thing. This case would have been no different if there had been any disagreement. There was none. That’s why every baptism was performed in the name of Jesus Christ!
My friend, if you have not repented, been baptized in Jesus’ name, and filled with the Holy Ghost, you are not yet saved. That’s NOT MY OPINION, that’s what the Bible says.
Thanks for reading,
Jeremy Pollock
Mr. Arejay,
You are absolutely right and I praise you sir! I had in my mind this great comeback to something mentioned earlier but once I read your entry, I decided that I would let it all rest (on my part) with what you said. I allowed myself to get defensive and took it upon myself to assertively prove the things of God. I would like to confess that I took upon myself an aggressive spirit towards the end of this rather than a humble spirit and therefore ask forgiveness from all. I know that God is sometimes more powerful in silence then in many words. He has a way of proving Himself with or without our help.
I do appreciate the opposing views that presented themselves throughout this discussion for it made me study anew these important scriptures. Sometimes the challenge of ones faith only serves to strengthen said faith. It is refreshing to know that amidst all the claims that religion is dying, we few have found one another and disproved this claim at least within our lives.
One thing that I have said that I adhere to…It is my prayer that everyone seeks God to the fullest extent of their ability, and finds Him.
I agree with Mr. Arejay in that I would like to hear the views of the administrators. You have conceived of such a thought provoking webpage and now I for one (well actually two now) am curious as to your thoughts.
God bless,
Scott Droddy
Bravo Mr. Pollock! You have summed up and directly stated my feelings and beliefs as well. I’m unsure as to where you stand on my prior comments but whether you agree or disagree with me, I do agree with you. God bless you sir for inserting your “opinion”. ( I use the term opinion here as to remain objective as we should when approaching a public forum. We must remember, as Mr. Arejay has pointed out, that people will differ in their beliefs and opinions and we should respect that fact)
I appreciate that you are also very sincere and sure of your faith. You also provided the scriptures that I had trouble remembering and it often hinders me. I know the verse but oftentimes cannot remember where it is without taking time to search therefore I will occasionally quote a verse and omit the reference. I guess I just do not always want to admit that I cannot remember exactly where it is. I need to pray about my pride.
Wow!!! I feel God dealing with me and it is wonderful!
I have a few more questions for no one specific…
if baptism is essential would that mean that would be a works based faith??? I thought it ws not of you works
Mr.Droddy, I would like to comment on the spiritual gifts..Are you saying that they too are an essential?? I unlike Mr. Mercer have seen these happen and have had them happen to me twice. Once I spoke in “tongues” however, my only problem with that is that there was no interperter and also I was not at that time a believer. I was at that time living in open sin and loved it, it wasn’t until years later that GOD took out my heart of stone and gave me a heart of flesh,(EZEK 11:19-20) and then I hated my sin and loved GOD. So I am afraid that my speaking in tongues was of another spirit other than GOD and by the way this was in a “church.” Also, at 1 time a priest layed his hands on me and told me of something that was going on in my life at that time that very few people knew of and told me to close my eyes and I never would have this happen again; and again I was an unbeliever at this time and I believe priest are not christians so that voids anything that they do to be of GOD. Having said all of this I was wondering what scripture you stand on that they still exist and if they do should there not be an interperter when someone speaks in tongues?? I could be wrong, I may be wrong, I like all others writting on these things am still have flesh so I still make mistakes, I welcome all truth!!
Thank you “Just Wondering” for your questions as they are very good ones!
First of all I never meant that the spiritual gifts are essential, only that they are available and present in Gods church. They are not mandatory for salvation, but they WILL BE present in the church that is within Gods will. I apologize for the confusion.
Mark 16: 17And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
19So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
20And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.
To confirm that they still exist, one simply needs to read the MANY scriptures that acknowledge their existence noting that at no point does the bible say they were taken back. If they are not taken back then it is a given that they are still in existence and therefore it would be impossible for the writers to state that in 2009 the gifts are still active. However one person DID leave us this;
Romans 11:29
For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
Keep in mind here that to repent is to turn away from therefore this scripture tells us that the gifts as well as the calling of God are not “turned away from” or in plain english, taken away once given.
There are plenty of references to the gifts too:
1 Corinthians 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
1 Corinthians 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
1 Corinthians 12:8-11 8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
1 Corinthians 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
1 Corinthians 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
1 Corinthians 14:1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
Ephesians 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
Hebrews 2:4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?
I understand how you could become confused by the event that took place in your life. It is a very common misconception that tongues is not real or of God if noone interpreted. This is not the case however.
1 Cor 14: 5I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
When tongues is for the edification of the church then an interpreter will be present but that does not always mean that the one that is “given” the interpretation will “obey” the spirit and speak that which is given him. He/she is human we must realize and may hold their tongue.
As for your experience, it was not meant for anyone to interpret for your spirit was praying for your own edification.
1 Corinthians 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
And the purpose for this:
1 Corinthians 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not:
And the common results:
1 Corinthians 14:23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
Of course it is not uncommon for some churches in which the gifts of the spirit are present to be overly aggressive in the same manner in which some of us were earlier in this discussion. As a result they do sometimes, through their over anxiousness, cross some boundries but this does not disprove the reality of the tongues.
1 Cor 14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. 28But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
This said, although I agree with the existence of tongues, I also agree that alot of churches cross boundries with it. But I repeat, their error does not delete the gifts importance!
The time you spoke in tongues, your spirit was recognizing the presence of God within the church you were in. Obviously, your spirit was crying out to God although your heart was not willing to let go of the sin in your life. Remember sir that we are given our own free will so just because you spoke in tongues and then chose not to leave your sin, does not mean that the event was false nor does it mean that it was perpetuated by any other spirit…in fact, it was because Gods presence was so strong around you in that place that your spirit called out in tongues.
I hope I answered your questions sufficiently.
God Bless,
Scott Droddy
And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen. (Mark 16:20)
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. (Matt. 24:24)
Thank you Mr. Droddy. I think with calm discussion, we can all learn and still keep our beliefs intact. Since the subject of tongues and signs has come up, I would like to make a few observations, and comments:
The two scriptures above describe two instances of “signs.” One that follows true believers and one that tells of signs manifested by the great deceiver. I would like to draw attention to the last words in Matt 24:24. “…if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.” We must be very careful with signs, whether they be tongues, healings, signs in the sky, etc. Only the Lord can help us know the difference. I would also use the principle “by their fruits shall ye know them.” I personally believe that both of these types of signs abound in the world today. I do not believe that signs will help you get into heaven, but that they are simply a manifestation of the Lord’s power to help and strengthen a believers testimony of the gospel. I also believe that whatever gospel principal the Lord has, that satan will devise an alternative. One that appears to be the same as the Lord’s, but leads to emptiness. If I could give any advice, it would be to be “ever watchful” in this area. Remember, if signs and miracles converted people, then the children of Israel, would have never sinned.
Hello everyone. The admin has been following and considering all of the posts, and we will make an attempt to respond to all of the questions and concerns in one post. If you find we have missed someone please write back to let us know, we want to provide all the true answers we can. Now, we will respond to one at a time…
I. CONCERNING THE REQUIREMENTS FOR SALVATION.
A. Baptism was…
1. Not mentioned by Jesus one time in His sermon on the Mount (Mathew 5:1-7:29)
This was a definite evangelistic sermon calling people to enter heaven and avoid hell (7:13-27), and yet Jesus never calls for any baptism. If one would call essential that which Jesus never called for they would logically seem to be proclaiming a different message.
2. Not mentioned by Paul one time in his sermon on Mars Hill (Acts 17:22-34)
Apply the above statement here as well.
3. Undergone by Peter’s converts after receiving the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:44-48)
Should one think of these new converts filled with the Holy Spirit as lost since baptism has not been accomplished yet? Obviously, that would be unthinkable.
4. Not undergone by the thief on the cross, yet Jesus promised Him paradise (Luke 23:43)
Clearly, Jesus promises paradise to someone and once again never mentions baptism. Also, the thief obviously was not baptized. Should one conclude he did not go to paradise with Jesus?
5. Not undergone by Abraham whom Paul makes clear was “justified” (Romans 4:1-25, Galatians 3:6-14)
Clearly Nobody ever baptized Abraham, ever pronounced a certain formula over him, and yet according to Paul he was justified. Should one conclude Paul is not speaking truthfully here?
6. Not undergone by any of those listed in (Hebrews 11:1-40), all of which “gained approval”.
Finally, we would have to call into question the faith of all the OT saints. Did Enoch, Elijah, David, Joshua, Isaiah, and Jeremiah not go to heaven due to not being baptized? Unthinkable again.
Our Conclusion: Due to the brief reasons listed above we believe baptism is commanded by Jesus, is to be obeyed, is evidence of knowing Him, but is not required for “justification” before God.
B. Prayer is…
1. Not in and of itself called a requirement for “justification” (Romans 3:28), but it can express faith.
The NT emphasis as the above reference clarifies is on “faith” not prayer. This is a matter of one’s heart as (Romans 10:10) makes clear. What we need is “righteousness”, how we connect to that is “faith”. One may pray as a way of expressing his/her faith, but we should never think the act of prayer is what justifies us before God. It is the life and death of Jesus alone that is our basis of justification.
Our Conclusion: One in need of food may have rice poured in his/her bowl by the American red cross, however, we would not say that the bowl met his/her need would we? No. We would say the bowl was used to connect him/her to what could meet his/her need. Likewise, it is the righteousness of Jesus we need and we connect to that by faith. So, faith in and of itself does not even save. Only faith in Christ does. Also, the present day emphasis on prayer has led multitudes to trust in a past prayer rather than Christ. The true Christian trust in Christ for assurance of salvation past/present/future and nothing else.
II. CONCERNING WORD MEANINGS AND PHRASES.
A. We believe the word “water” in John 3:5 does not refer to “water baptism” since…
1. According to Jesus, Nicodemus should have known what He meant (John 3:10)
Jesus originally spoke these words to a teacher in Israel not us, and indicted him for not understanding. Therefore, it must have been something Nicodemus should have known. This means the Old Testament Scriptures is where we should look since the New Testament Scriptures were not yet written. Not to mention New Testament baptism had yet to be inaugurated. If we search the OT for “water and the Spirit” We find that “water and spirit” come together most forcefully in (Ezekiel 36:25-27). Water, referring to Cleansing, and Spirit, God’s principle of life. Paul also validates this prophecy for regeneration in (2 Corinthians 3:3) as referring to New Testament Christians. Any other interpretation assumes Jesus’ comments to have no relevancy for Nicodemus.
2. “born of water and the Spirit” is a direct parallel to “born again” (3:3, 5)
This indicates the meaning of both phrases should be the same. Thus, He speaks of the new spiritual birth and then gives an Old Testament background explanation for it.
3. Nicodemus’s confusion is next to impossible in that scenario (3:4, 9)
If Jesus meant anything about physical water baptism the only possible one He was referring to was John the Baptist’s baptism. But, surely Nicodemus had heard of John’s baptism? Obviously, that is not what He meant.
4. No such baptism existed at the time of their conversation.
We have already clarified the point that Christian baptism had not yet begun and that the only available one was John the Baptist’s. So, if Jesus did refer to John’s baptism this would exclude all Christians since that time, because they have received Christian baptism, not John’s baptism. Not to mention that John was obviously not pronouncing a formula such as “in Jesus name” or even “in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit”. This would mean no hope for any of us. Furthermore, since the baptism’s we practice today were not practiced by John, Jesus could not have possibly been referring to them could He? Obviously not.
Our Conclusion: If I typed the word “trunk” what would it mean? An elephants nose? A compartment in an automobile? Only the context determines word meanings. Therefore, the same word does not always mean the same thing. Try “spring”. A time of year? A metal coil? A fountain of water? Having considered the biblical and historical context of (John 3:1-10) for the above mentioned reasons we do not believe the word “water” refers to physical baptism, but the spiritual regeneration prophesied through (Ezekiel 36:25-27).
B. What does the phrase “fulfill all righteousness” mean in (Mathew 3:15)?
1. the same as (Mathew 5:17). This takes us back to the original article of what God requires. He requires perfection and we don’t have it. This is why Jesus lived for approximately 33yrs. on earth. He lived a life of perfection so that God could consider us perfect in Him. Please consider (2 Corinthians 5:21, and Philippians 3:9). He had no need of perfection, for He is always and forever perfect. We had the need, and that’s why He fulfilled the Law for the elect.
III. CONCERNING ROMAN CATHOLICISM (STACEY)
A. Heretical Doctrine of the Life of Christ
1. They do not teach that the righteousness of Christ forever justifies the elect.
The Apostle Paul takes up this error in Galatians were he clearly pronounces damnation on any teachers and believers in this doctrine (Galatians 1:6-9).
B. Heretical Doctrine of the Death of Christ
1. They do not teach that the death of Christ once and for all paid the sin penalty for God’s elect.
The writer of Hebrews takes up this error in Hebrews were he clearly says Christ died once not every time someone administers the “so called mass” (Hebrews 9:25-10:18)
Thanks everyone,
Admin.
I just got to log in and catch up. Thank you Arejay for asking Scott to elaborate on the gifts. I wanted to ask before but I also wanted to let the other subject play through. I have been confused by the gifts of the spirit too. The church I grew up in pretty much just ignored those scriptures like they werent in the bible or something and nobody had a good answer when I asked about them. I would grow up hearing about someone that was healed of some sickness or something really great like that but it was always something that I only heard about and never seen. As far as tongues goes, I remember one time seeing something on tv and it was a preacher and people were crying all around the alter and someone started saying stuff that I didnt understand and I knew right then that they was talking in tongues cause I felt it all over me just watching it. I found out that this church was penecostal so not too long ago I went to that big penecostal church in alexandria and all I can say is wow! My church always talked about worshiping God but at that church they actually do it! I felt God so strongly that I just kept crying for joy and then right there at my seat I started talking in tongues! It was like God was right there in front of me and I felt so good and pure and didnt want that feeling to leave me! I want to go back there all the time but my family and friends will make fun of me. They always say nasty things about that religion and I always just went along with what they said but then I went there and i dont think like that anymore. Then Mr. Droddy left gave that scripture about everyone coming together in one place and talking in tongues and the unlearned and unbelievers calling them mad. Thank you Mr. Droddy because now I can see that is why people keep saying those things about that religion. The just dont understand it or believe it and it is so sad because they are making fun of it and I really think with all my heart that if God is anywherre, he is there! I’m so sad for all the people who will never know the difference and will live all their life believing what they have been told. Well, I’m here to tell everyone that I was lied to too!
And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in
Jordan.
And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove
descending upon him: (Mark 1:9-10)
I would like to thank Mr. Mercer for his contributions on here and would like to say to him the same thing I said to Mr. Droddy earlier. I would hope that you will pray about your decision and act accordingly. There is much good to be had with intelligent, but spiritual conversation about our Lord and Savior and his gospel.
T the T, thanks for you response. I really appreciate your logic and research. Well done. While you provide ample evidence for your point, I think there is ample evidence that baptism is essential, thus I will remain convinced of that. (Christ being sinless and thus not in need of repentence, but nevertheless being baptized to fulfill all righteousness, I take to mean He was being baptized because His Father in heaven required it of Him, thus I feel it is required of me also.)
And of course, I do have some other concerns. I hope and pray that I may have the ability to convey through words what it is that concerns me. Please correct me on anything that you feel I may not understand correctly. I’ll try to be brief.
My understanding of your understanding is that Baptism is not required to get to heaven, but if a person feels the need to then it’s ok. Prayer is not essential, but if a person feels the need to pray then there is no problem and he should follow his conscience on this also. Not sure how you feel about repentence, but it appears that you may believe that Christ died for us, so there is not really a need for repentence, but if one feels the need then he should repent. (As I read back over this, it appears to be somewhat sarcastic – none intended)
Thanks for your consideration.
Arejay,
Thank you for your response. If you would allow me I would like to ask you a few questions…
A. If, as you said, baptism is essential for justification…
1. Why did neither Jesus or Paul offer it to their audiences?
2. Were Peters converts lost after receiving the Holy Spirit since they hadnt received
baptism?
3. Were all the Old Testament saints lost since they hadnt received baptism?
4. Were the diciples lost until the day of pentecost, since baptism hadnt yet begun?
5. Was the theif on the cross lost since he hadnt received baptism before he died?
6. Finally, which baptism is required for justification? John’s or Jesus’?
7. If you say Jesus’, then was John lost since he did not receive the other?
B. On Jesus’ baptism to fulfill all righteousness…
1. Why do you think God the Father required God the Son to be baptized? If you say to fulfill all righeousness, I ask what righteousness do you mean?
C. On your understanding of my understanding…
1. I believe what the Lord clearly taught on Baptism: It is a command. It is not to be
belittled in any way, for it is special. All converts are to obey His command. That’s
clearly taught. However, the Bible does not teach baptism is essential for “justification”
(see letter A questions above). It is one of the many streams of obedience flowing from
justification, but not the fountain supplying it.
2. I also believe what He taught on prayer: Again, it is a command. A privelige. And all
children of God pray. However, prayer is not essential to justification, faith is.
3. I also believe what He taught on Repentance and Faith: These two elements make up
the molecule of coversion. Repentance is turning from sin and Faith is turning to God, one is negative and the other positive. You cannot repent without faith, nor have faith without repentance. And when one repents and has faith in the life and death of Jesus
for their justification before God, the Bible teaches God forever justifies them! Which
means declares them perfect in His sight.
Conclusion: I would like to add an emphasis for help. Humankinds delimma is not how can we perform some act to please God, for we cannot please Him. Only His Son can, and when we trust in Him God treats us as though we lived His perfect life. Prayer, Baptism, Evangelism, Missions, Bible study, and Sunday School are all righteous things that justified saints perform, but those acts are not their “ground” or “basis” before God. They forever sing “Nothing in my hands I bring, simply to the Cross I cling”
I would also like to thank Mr. Mercer for his participation in this discussion as well as encourage him to remain in it. Mr. Mercer, you were of a particular opinion on a subject that obviously had multiple points of view. Also, remember that religion and politics are two very difficult subjects to discuss, especially when opposing views are involved, without feathers getting ruffled. In my honest opinion, I believe this to be a promising sign because it shows the the participants involved in the discussion are sincere and completely committed to their idea or point of view. I feel very bad about the way things evolved and when I noticed others starting to jump in, I just sorta backed off. But, such it the natural order of things. Everyone wants to voice their “opinion” and noone wants to be disagreed with. The trick is, as Mr. Arejay reminded me, to remain patient and longsuffering throughout it all.
I believe that there are 3 kinds of christians. Consider Luke 11:10. “For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.” I view this not as 3 ways of making the same point, but rather, as 3 different and increasing levels of desire. First you have the “Existers”. These are those that merely exist an go through the motions of religion. Next you have the “Askers”. These are the ones that pray make a little effort here and there when they need something or when its a special occasion. Then you have the “Seekers”. Now these are the ones that are more commited and have pretty close relationships with God…these are the ones that speak with God and hear him when he speaks back. Lastly, you have the “Knockers”. Now these are the special ones for these are the ones that break out of the box of normal mentality. These are the ones that boldly go before the throne. These are the Jacobs that grabs hold of an angel and doesnt let go until they are blessed. The “Knockers” are more likely to move Hell right out of their way to get to Heaven! Hallelujah! Anyways, a natural trait of a “Knocker” is that they are more aggressive and sure of their steps. They are more likely to offend someone unintentionally as well. I believe you sir to be a “Knocker” and you have all my respect. We do not have to agree on every subject to be brothers in Christ and battle together against our common ememy.
I have learned alot from our discussion. The bible says that the meek shall inherit the earth (I’m not sure what exact book and verse that is but I’m sure it is in Mathew…You’re off the top of your head memory is much superior to mine) , yet I do not feel that I displayed meek qualities. This morning as I read your last entry, my eyes filled with tears for you sir DID display meekness…and it touched my soul. I have asked God to forgive my arrogance and aggression and ask you to do the same. Your light has outshined mine by far this day Mr. Mercer and I am thankful to God for what I have learned from this experience.
Please accept my invitation to remain in the discussion. Your point of view is needed and obviously shared by the administrators. I will probably continue to disagree with you…lol….but I will do so with a humble and openminded spirit. Although I am firm in my belief, I would like very much to at least see and understand your point of view.
God Bless,
Scott Droddy
Now Mr./Ms. Administrator,
I know it is not me that you asked your last question to but as I am a very opinionated person (obviously), I would like to throw my two cents in while we await Arejay’s response.
A.
First Paul….Paul DID offer it to his audiences! How did you miss it? Look at Acts 19…
Acts 19
1And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,2He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.3And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John’s baptism.4Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
Now lets break this little treasure down…first in verse 2 we see clearly that Paul differentiates between the Holy Ghost and believing…did y’all catch that? Obviously receiving of the Holy Ghost is above and beyond simply belief. Hey, I didnt say it! Read it for yourself! Now read the rest of that verse for it speaks for itself. Paul inquires as to their prior baptism, then he REbaptizes them!!! So not only did he practice and preach it, but he obviously believed it to be important!
You ask why was Johns not sufficient…well John was preparing the way for Jesus. The bible states this several times. He did his baptizing prior to Jesus’s death, burial, and resurrection. Jesus had to accomplish the death, burial, and resurrection for the plan of salvation to go into effect y’all! Once “it was finished”, then baptism’s were to be done in His name and. All deaths prior to the death of Jesus Christ, including those in the old testament and even the thief on the cross, were in the old dispensation for the plan of salvation HAD NOT YET BEEN ESTABLISHED!
When reading the new testament, after Jesus was crucified and was resurrected, you will find baptism after baptism taking place all over place! If it were not essential, why were they taking so much time to baptize people by the thousands?
B. This is where you are starting to split hairs way to much. God desires us to be pure and righteous. (The baptism accomplishes this.) He also requires us to be obedient.(Getting baptized accomplishes this.) He also intended Jesus to be an example to us all. (As He was God the Father, so was He God the Son. As He was Spirit, so was He man) This being said, it was necessary for Jesus to be baptized. Also, who are we to question the agenda of God? He wanted it done so it was done…period. We are a spoiled generation that requires additional proof to substantiate the teachings and traditions of the bible.
C.
1. I have to use the old copy and paste technique here because I am confused by something you said….
“I believe that the Lord clearly taught on Baptism: It is a command. It is not to be
belittled in any way, for it is special. All converts are to obey His command. That’s
clearly taught.”
READ THIS. This is your statement. And you DONT feel that baptism is essential? BUT we should do it…BUT it is not essential….BUT it is special…BUT it is not essential…BUT the Lord clearly teaches on it…BUT it is not essential…BUT it is commanded…BUT it is not essential…BUT all converts are to obey His command…BUT it is not essential……….I’M VERY CONFUSED HERE!!!
2. Here we have that “prayer is commanded but it is not essential” statement again. Ok..here it is again. Prayer itself is not part of the plan of salvation. It is not prayer in itself that is an ingredient required for justification. BUT for the life of me, I just have trouble understanding how someone can ASK God to forgive them of their sins, and then turn away from them, and then sustain the “saved” status for life, without ever uttering a word in prayer??? Some things are just a given…
I remain increasingly steadfast in my heartfelt belief in these things but respect the differing opinions that have been submitted. My main worry is for those that may visit this webpage in the future. It is our responsibility as Gods children to shine our lights into the darkness. I am very aware that any and/or every one of us that has given an opinion on the blog can be wrong…including myself (wow, its always hard to admit that…lol) BUT what concerns me is this. To those who are a little more liberal in their views, what if you are wrong? What if you were right about everything EXCEPT one little thing and lets say it was baptism. Lets say baptism turned out to be REQUIRED and you just made an honest mistake. It happens right? But this time, on this little honest mistake, you created a webpage which implies authority within itself to the unlearned. Every response it read and soaked up by others but yours lends a different weight and yours states that baptism IS NOT required. What if you turned out to be wrong? I know you are confident in your decision but what if this time you missed it? And all those poor people that clung to your decision!
Just something to think about. Remember, we are always watched by many more than we realize. All our efforts should be to prevent being a reproach to Him that is our Creater and Savior.
God Bless,
Scott Droddy
Mr. Droddy,
I am a bit confused…that verse is not talking about 4 different types of christians. Luke 11:10. “For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.” , the existers, askers, seekers and knockers are no where mentioned in the bible. We are not to take verses out of the bible one sentence at a time instead we are to read the whole chapter or whole book if it may be!! The verse was speaking of salvation and in consideration of the verse Luke 11:10. “For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.” All who ask and seek in truth will find eternal life. I say in truth because, I did ask and seek, only the one I asked and sought did not exist it was a god to fit my life. I sought one that was not in the bible, I would pick and choose the verses I wanted and not the others that I did not want. So in truth you must ask, seek and knock. Meaning you must seek the true GOD the GOD of scripture!! Not the god that many make up in their minds. And so Mr. Droddy the people that you are speaking of who occassionally seek their god, they should test themselves and seek GOD.
Matt 13:3-8 “A sower went out to sow. 4 And as he sowed, some seeds fell along the path, and the birds came and devoured them. 5 Other seeds fell on rocky ground, where they did not have much soil , and immediately they sprang up, since they had no depth of soil , 6 but when the sun rose they were scorched. And since they had no root, they withered away. 7 Other seeds fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up and choked them. 8 Other seeds fell on good soil and produced grain, some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
ESV
This verse I believe would apply more to the different “christians”, or rather ones lead astray by phalse teachers. This is a parable of those who hear but, GOD does not do a work on them, except in verse 8 the good soil is the true christian. And the growth of true christians will be different, however they will all grow!!
“And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.” (I Timothy 3:1
About Baptism
Born Again? Water and Spirit!!! I would like to correct the admin if i may. Water does mean Baptism and the spirit does mean Holy ghost. What Jesus was saying is you have to be “born” again which means you have to die in some way right? in order to have a rebirth! now watch this!!
“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life…. Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin…. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.” (Romans 6:3,4,6,12) “I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.” (Galatians 2:20) hmmm. crucified with Christ i wonder what happens when you are crucified? YOU DIE!!!!!
If I read what the admin commented right then i find that they was basically saying that Jesus was not “referring” to john baptism.. hmmm… Well I dont think that Jesus Was talking about that either BUT he was indeed talking about Baptism in his name and receiving the Holy Ghost!! Jesus knows what the future holds therfore he looks far beyond the past or the present. So he was not talking about baptism that had already happened but the baptism that was to come in his NAME which is JESUS, also the infilling of the Holy Ghost which is the spirit of Jesus Christ.Therefore in the time that Jesus was talking to Nicodemus he had not died on the Cross YET for our SINS. Jesus giving his life up for us was so that our sins could be forgivin. In order to be “BORN AGAIN” we must first die. Well Mr. Pollock how is it that we die so we can be born again? Luke 5:32 Jesus clearly says that he came to call all sinners to repentance!! so first you have to Repent and then be baptized which is the washing away of sins and crucifying the old man and coming out of the water a new man and then recieve the Holy Ghost which verifies that you have been born again of the Water “baptism” and of the spirit “Holy Ghost”. Also this does not have to be done in any certain order exept the repentance has to be done first. I dont know how much clearer that the Bible gets, its all there. The plan of salvation is very clear. There should never at no time be an argument about the word of GOD. I have tons of Scripture to back the sound Doctrine that i live by. If anyone has any questions please allow me to do my best to answere them, Or ask Mr. Droddy he seems to have more time than i do and also believes the same as I. Folks this is no game or competition and it makes me cry when people treat it that way. I wonder how Jesus feels about bickering and argueing about HIS word. All i can do is tell it how it is. I dont understand how people do everything they possibly can to turn away from the TRUTH they dont want to believe whats right because it may cause them to have to live a certain way or dress a certain way or talk different or anything that may take away from their PRIDE. God does not want us to be a part of the world, that means look like it, talk like it, act like it, live in it! 1john2:15] Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
1john2:[16] For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
Jesus wants us to be different its obvious. I sure want to be different and i am. It makes me so happy that because i look not of the world and dont act like the world that another human being that does not even know who i am can tell that I have the Holy Ghost and I live for God. I have had people i never saw in my life walk up to me and ask me to pray for them or simply just ask me about GOD because they knew that there was something about me and they seen it all over me. HE wants others to see Him through us and the only way that can happen is that he is in us, the “holy ghost”. Im aware that the title of a church is not what gets you to Heaven but what will get you there is obeying the word EVERYWORD!
Just Wondering…..
You took my “analogy” way to literally…lol. You see the beauty of the bible as that one portion of scripture can have a literal meaning yet at the same time still provoke one thoughts so that ulitimately multiple lessons may be learned. Of course I know that Luke 11:10 was not originally written as a description of 4 types of christians but it was, however, another Godly lesson that this text provoked within me. In case I am not making sense to you, it is comparable to when Jesus taught in parables. Jesus used parables (analogies) frequently when teaching and preaching. A great example of this is the scripture you mentioned, Mat 13:3-8. Was Jesus specifically referring to a farmer planting a crop? No he wasnt. He used the farmer as a literal example to teach a spiritual lesson.
Luke 11:10 provokes within my spirit a lesson of multiple levels of commitment to God. It is a lesson, not to others, but to my own self. I just happened to share this personal thing with Mr. Mercer because despite our disagreements on certain subjects, I feel a bond with him. I did not share this in hopes that someone else would over analyze my point of view and another dispute could begin.
Just ponder the lesson as I explained it with an opened and receptive mind. Is it not an interesting way to view the mulitple levels of commitment that we see within our faith? If it does nothing for you then so be it. If it does, then so be it. It is not meant as a replacement to the true meaning of the verse. We are not in dispute as to that meaning.
God’s blessing on all
Scott Droddy
Law Surgeon,
Assuming you DID NOT read my response to Tell The Truth I will copy and paste it again:
You ask why was Johns not sufficient…well John was preparing the way for Jesus. The bible states this several times. He did his baptizing prior to Jesus’s death, burial, and resurrection. Jesus had to accomplish the death, burial, and resurrection for the plan of salvation to go into effect y’all! Once “it was finished”, then baptism’s were to be done in His name and. All deaths prior to the death of Jesus Christ, including those in the old testament and even the thief on the cross, were in the old dispensation for the plan of salvation HAD NOT YET BEEN ESTABLISHED!
I cannot understand why everyone keeps overlooking this important point! People that lived and died before the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ was not subject to the plan of salvation that we know AFTER the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. This is elementary stuff y’all. How can a person that lived and died 1 year or even 1000 years BEFORE Christ died for our sins and was resurrected and taken into heaven so that we could then be born into His spirit, be baptized into His name? This point has been repeated mulitiple times!
Okay Admin you obviously do not know your BIBLE, because if you did you would know about the defferent dispensations that are clearly outlined in the BIBLE. Everyone before the time of Moses fell under the dispensation of: innocence (do not eat of the tree of knowledge), conscience (do good and do not do evil), authority of man (believe God and build an ark), promise(believe Gods promise to Abraham), then when God gave Moses the (LAW) everyone from that day until the day of Pentecost came under the dispensation of Law. i.e. the sacrificing of animals as an attoinment for sin, obey God and keep his commandments. Then God manifested himself in flesh as JESUS CHRIST and became the lamb for sinners slain at calvary. So the “thief question” that you thought was going to be a stumbling block to me. Had JESUS CHRIST died yet when he had his conversation with the thief? Obviously not! Also the day of Pentecost with the “promise” of the comforter had not came. So then our theif fell under the dispensation of LAW and under that dispensation God can allow who ever he wants into Heaven. He’s GOD remember! Okay so now to the new birth. If Matthew, Mark, Luke , John, Peter, and all the rest of the Disciples and Mary the Mother of Jesus were already okay in Gods eyes, why then were they all present on the day of Pentecost? Why then did they all recieve the Holy Ghost? The Bible does not give specific acounts for each one of their baptisms’ but you know they all were because Peter said in Acts 2:38 Repent and be Baptized EVERYONE of you. WHY did Peter say at Cornelius’ house, ACTS10:47 “can any man forbid water that these should not be baptized which have recieved the Hoy Ghost as well as we”? Also why did the eithiopian man while riding in his chariot with Phillip in ACTS chapter 8, demand that the chariot be stopped so he could get out and Phillip could baptize him in a body of “water” on the side of the road? Also why did all the Apostles teach repentance, water baptism in the name of JESUS, and the infilling of the Holy Ghost? They also taught people who had already been baptized by John the baptist to heed to the new Dispensation. “Deny ACTS chapter 19 if you dare”. One last thought, heres the problem with people today. There is a strong spirit of deception in this world. It is a spirit of the Anti Christ and 2Thessalonians 2:9-12 finishes by telling us “that they all might be damned who believe not the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness”! YOU HAVE BEEN TOLD THE TRUTH, THE WHOLE TRUTH, NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH, THE GOSPEL TRUTH, “THE BIBLE TRUTH”. What will you do with it?
Imagine if traffic flowed all ways in a 360 degree circle? I believe if we all agree to go one direction at a time the conversations will better edify. Therefore, while I greatly appreciate all responses and concerns recently mentioned (today), I would ask all to consider the admin’s original post. Also, I will only ask for one piece of the pie to be eaten at a time, in this way we will successfully answer each others questions. So let me call attention back to my original points and follow up questions (they go together).
A. If baptism is essential for God to justify a sinner, unless the NT preachers were poor
communicators, we would expect them to ALWAYS preach it to sinners.
1. Why did Jesus never mention it in His sermon on the mount (Mathew 5:1-7:29)?
2. Why did Paul never mention it in his sermon at Athens (Acts 17:22-34)?
*These are inspired sermons delivered by The Lord Jesus Christ and the Apostle Paul to sinners for their eternal salvation. I see only two options here to explain the absence of baptism in these two sermons: 1) Baptism is not essential for justification. 2) The sermons have left out an essential for justification.
Everyone please respond respectively, so that all may be edified and the conversations stay on track somewhat.
Thanks everyone,
Admin
to admin,
And i say again to you, you do not know your Bible. There is plenty of evidence in what i provided you. You apparently are steeped in some sort of weird Tradition. And i say to you what Jesus said in the book of Matthew, ” by your tradidtions you make the commandment of God of none effect. You are right in that God does not change “HE DOES NOT CHANGE”, but HE does change his plans. For one example of many: (why did God tell Hezekiah that he was going to die and then turned around and let him live?)
You do not understand dispensationalism or maybe you do understand it and refuse to accept it.
Also one more thing. Why is it that i can answere everyone of your questions but yet for some reason you choose not to answere mine? Hmm………………………………..
I appreciate your request to stay on track and remain organized. We have in fact jumped around subjects quite frequently which does make it difficult to stay on track.
Also, you do have an understandable question being why didnt NT preachers ALWAYS specify baptism in EVERY recorded sermon.
The answer to that is, there is no answer. You successfully located 2 sermons in which baptism is not mentioned. I will not argue that point. I do not know why the speakers chose not to mention baptism in these two sermons, unless it could be that the writers of the books did not record the exact mention of baptism in the sermons. You know, if you go to the bowling alley or something, you will find a code of conduct on the wall somewhere. On it there will be a list of rules extending from throwing your trash in proper recepticles to not wearing your tennis shoes on the alley floor. Nowhere on this list will you see a rule saying that you are not allowed to murder someone if they beat you. Would it be against the rules? Of course it would! Why isnt it written on the code of conduct? Well because some things are a given because it has already been put in effect and still applies. Will there ever be an occasion in which someone may try to sue the bowling alley because they didnt SPECIFY the rule so they just didnt realize it was wrong? Probably so because there will always be those that will come along and “split hairs”!
But, we still have this issue of two, count ‘em, two sermons in which baptism wasnt mentioned for whatever reason. Now, maybe I’m just different and my mind processes things differently than others, but I cant help but to notice all those other sermons in which baptism IS mentioned. Should I disregard the fact that it IS mentioned so many times in detail? After all, you have a good point administrator, there are those two times that it wasnt. I think I’ll stick with believing it is still necessary even though there are those two times that it didnt get mentioned. I dont want to be like the guy in the bowling alley that “didnt know” it was against the rules to shoot the guy that beat him because it wasnt specified in the code of conduct that particular day. I’m gonna assume that the teachers and preachers in the bible spoke in front of many crowds and some of them more than once therefore the second and third sermon to a particular crowd may have covered different material and only highlighted prior sermons. I know I sure would hate to decide that it isnt necessary to do a very simple thing because it was not repeated in EVERY SERMON I ever heard, only to discover that it did in fact turn out to be part of a rite of passage and I got every other thing checked on the “must do” list…EXCEPT THAT ONE! Would God understand and let me in anyways? I dont know the answer to that…and I dont plan to find out!
God Bless,
Scott Droddy
Why is it so hard to understand that to be saved BEFORE the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, a person needed to obey the “law” as given by Moses which included much more than just the 10 commandments. Then comes Jesus whose express purpose was to usher in the dispensation of grace and provide the world with a new plan of salvation which we have already covered. To presume that the plan of salvation was already established BEFORE Jesus Christ was born, lived, was crucified, died, and was resurrected and that this plan of salvation was not changed or altered in any way AFTER that Jesus Christ took upon himself the sins of the world, was beaten, carried OUR cross, and was crucified is to deny the work and purpose of Jesus Christ….I suddenly feel nauseous that this is the stance of the administrators of this webpage. I thought the purpose of this page was to shine the light of the gospel unto the unlearned or unbelieving but you just denied the gospel completely. If your statement were to be true sirs, then there would never have even been a need for Jesus Christ. Whether you realize it or will admit it, that is the stance you just revealed to us.
But it is your opinion and I will respect it. I am a little taken aback at the moment but I accept and respect your opinion.
Thank you,
Scott Droddy
Law Surgeon,
These are questions you posed about baptism.
1. Why did Jesus never mention it in His sermon on the mount (Mathew 5:1-7:29)?
2. Why did Paul never mention it in his sermon at Athens (Acts 17:22-34)?
So what you’re saying is that since rape, murder, and robbery weren’t mentioned in every sermon by Jesus and the Apostles then It’s cool to out and do those things. Question: Do you take a debit card, check, cash, and/or some kind of purchasing power with you everytime you leave home? Sure you do. Will you always use it? No. It’s just good to have if you need it. Let me establish something before I make my point. I believe in Repentence, Water Baptism by immersion in the name of Jesus Christ, and the infilling of the Holy Ghost as evidenced by speaking in other tongues. I believe that these things are absolutely essential. But even if they aren’t essential (and they are), I’d rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it.
Sincerely,
Ben Pollock
One more thing. With all due respect to you. You are taking things in the Bible out of context to suit your doctrine. Isaiah said that it must be, “Line upon line and precept upon precept” Your comments are not.
Mr. Droddy,
Thank you sir.
Your argument from “murder” is invalid since murder is a universal known truth among men. However, baptism is not. Therefore, one does have to first hear the rule before they can partake of it.
You asked, “Why is it so hard to understand that to be saved BEFORE the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, a person needed to obey the “law” as given by Moses which included much more than just the 10 commandments.”?
I am sorry sir, but the unchangeableness of God’s plan of salvation was not our opinion, rather it was the testimony of Scripture…
1. The OT saint, Abraham was justified by faith in the same way as all NT saints.
(Please read Romans chapter 4 in full for Pauls exposition)
- “the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was
NOT THROUGH THE LAW, but THROUGH THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF FAITH.” (4:13)
Conclusion: Abraham was not justified by obeying the Law given by Moses, but by the
righteousness he received on the basis of faith.
(Please read Galatians chapter 3 in full for Pauls defense)
- “Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of FAITH who are sons of Abraham. The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached THE GOSPEL beforehand to Abraham, saying, “All The Nations Will Be Blessed In You.” So then those who are of FAITH are blessed with Abraham, the believer.” (3:7-9)
Conclusion: You said “you just denied the gospel” However Paul clearly calls this message the gospel. see the above reference.
2. As for the works of the Law in OT times…
-For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed Is Everyone Who Does Not Abide By All Things Written In The Book Of The Law, To Perform Them. Now that NO ONE is justified by the Law before God is evident; for “The Righteous Man Shall Live By Faith.” (Galatians 3:10-11)
Conclusion: You will notice these two quoted text by Paul are OT text. He clearly teaches NO ONE is justified by the Law before God.
*We teach the same doctrine here: justification by faith in the finished work of Christ alone. Remember humanities predicament will not be solved by their work, but only by Christ’s work. Everyone seems to be looking to their work of baptism, prayer, etc… You must look to Christ and Him alone. Faith, not works connects a sinner to Christ, even if that work is baptism. Again, I strongly urge everyone to read ROMANS AND GALATIANS, for you will find no baptism requirement there either. Only faith in the life and death of Christ.
Thanks.
Ben,
You accused someone of taking verses out of context to suit their own doctrine…
Please provide historical/cultural and or biblical argument for accusations. If one has taken a text out of context and you see that, we welcome the helpful corrections, but please explain yourself. To accuse and not provide evidence is not good. In the future please explain or refrain.
Thanks,
Admin.
Mr. Droddy,
I just wanted to clear something up before I forgot…when the things happened to me in my past “speaking in tongues”…that was NOT of GOD. I can assure you, I was living in sin and loving my sin. Also, you said that “Obviously, your spirit was crying out to God although your heart was not willing to let go of the sin in your life.”, I am unsure where you that is in scripture that your heart and your spirit are 2 different things or that GOD doesnt control them both??
thanks
Just Wondering
Just Wondering,
Please forgive me if I am wrong, but Do I understand it right that you had the experience of speaking in tongues?
Ben P.
ADMIN,
“You accused someone of taking verses out of context to suit their own doctrine…
Please provide historical/cultural and or biblical argument for accusations. If one has taken a text out of context and you see that, we welcome the helpful corrections, but please explain yourself. To accuse and not provide evidence is not good. In the future please explain or refrain.”
Well It was my assumption that a person who “knows the Bible” could read these posts and see these things for themselves rather blatantly. To avoid a long post I sincerely agree with Mr. Droddy and the other Mr. Pollock.
Admin,
Again, I strongly urge everyone to read ROMANS AND GALATIANS, for you will find no baptism requirement there either. Only faith in the life and death of Christ.
Sir, Do you realize that Paul was speaking here to people who had already received the gospel and experienced the new birth. These are epistles to people who were already saved. These people were already baptized.
BP
Admin,
I have another a question. In your view how do you get to Heaven?
BP
‘I have followed the comments since the start of the post. I am most ashamed and feel a since of sorrow that this message of God was looked over as we dance back and fourth over the issues of (Baptism,Tounges,Prayer). I think God for this site, and the folks behind it. My earnest prayer is that God will make us to read and apply what has been faithfully taken from the word of God and line our selves up with that and see where it is that we stand. Paul cried out that we examine ourselves….may we do just that!
To often as humans, our left over pride rises up even in the face of ministry and we pretend to have all the answers and understanding of texts and what they mean.
I pray that God will give EVERYONE here a BIGGER dosage of humility.
May God bless our time, and may we get back to our goal here….?”
Which is what Mr Smith? What is the goal here? I thought we were all giving our sincere views here. I thought we were all just commenting back and forth here. What is the goal here if we’re not achieving it? I believe and know that I’m saved. The others on this site believe that they’re saved. I thought we were supposed to be explaining why we believe these things. I must admit that I am a zealot for what I believe and know is right. Proverbs 23:23 “Buy the truth and do not sell it;” I believe that I have the truth. Why shouldn’t I get excited about it? I mean why do we need to come across with the “victimized” attitude when things get a little heated? That is unfortunately the way it goes when It comes to religious discussion. (Between people who sincerely believe what they profess to be truth.) I thought that everyone here was just going as the posts went. This is an opinionated site right? People’s opinions aren’t always going to mesh. It is in my sincerest opinion (concerning the origin of the site) that if you begin proclaiming your opinion about a particular subject then you immediately open yourself for return comments from those who don’t share the view. From what I can tell We’re all “believers” in God talking amongst ourselves why we believe the way we do. Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought we could all “lobby” for what we believe on here. Once again many times we disagree on that, and it may get heated. But I for one don’t have anything personal against other posters. I don’t know them. Your words seem to rebuke all the posters here. As for humilty, I’m humble enough to say this. If in my few posts I have come across as rude, arrogant, and/or offensive in anyway I sincerely apologize to everyone on this site. I’m am just excited about what I believe.
Sincerely,
Ben P.
Ben,
Romans was written to explain the doctrine of justification by faith (how one gets right with God)
Galatians was written to defend the doctrine of justification by faith (how one gets right with God)
So, if baptism were included in justification we would expect to find it there.
Here, our doctrine of getting right with God is justification by faith.
Thanks.
Just Wondering,
First of all, forgive me for jumping to conclusions originally. When you first described your story, I had a particular image in my minds eye and that image provoked memories within me that caused me to make blind judgements.
I was not there with you when you had your experience therefore I really cannot answer your question. Although I sincerely believe in the gift of tongues as well as the other gifts, I also believe that these gifts can be abused and/or faked. I cannot explain you experience, only that I have witnessed many come into the presence of God and cry out in response to God’s presence in the form of tongues. After speaking to them later, they admitted that at that moment, they were in fact sincere and were in a repentant state but when they went home to their life, they immediately reverted back to the sin because they just were not ready to give it up. Please forgive me for being presumptuous concerning your experience. I guess my reflex was to assume it was real as it usually is. I also admit that this blog has sorta gotten me in defensive mode. I guess I take it too personally when what I know in my spirit to be true is attacked, criticized, or devalued. I am not pointing any fingers at anyone for we all just shared our opinions but views that are very conflicting, as well as disturbing, have been shared and emotionally I have become defensive. For this reason, I should probably follow Mr. Mercer’s lead and exit the conversation.
Gentlemen, I appologize for my delay in responding. My worldly duties have had me pretty busy, and my vehicle has developed some mechanical problems, so my time is short even now. Just some thoughts from my past. I once did some study about the Jewish religion and in particular about the structure and organization at the time of Jesus. Two things pop out to me. One is that Jesus was speaking to Jews, so they would have already been members of the jewish religion.(When I have time I will have to go and retrace my steps, I’m vague on the details), and the other point is that the writers did not include the whole sermon, but only included parts. I have a hard time thinking Jesus, just spoke for a few minutes. (If he did, then a lot of ministers are in trouble today :O) -humor) I’m thinking he spoke much longer, but the writers either included what they felt was relavent, or were instructed by Jesus as what to include, as he had many conferences with just he and the twelve.
One more thought, the words of the Bible cannot convert and/or change anybody (no matter how eloquently or logically we may present them). . . . . unless accompanied by the spirit. We can control that. We as a person or persons (gathering), must create an atmosphere where the spirit can teach us about the things that we hear and feel. I think that the conversation on this site can be done in a manner that the spirit can be with us and teach us, but it will take some effort and self-critcism, and not “other” criticism. Sorry for the short note, hope to be back soon. Thanks for listening.
To all others:
Thank you all for your opinions. Know that I read and considered every word written by everyone. Although my foundational beliefs in the doctrine of my Lord and Savior has not changed, I must still thank you all for not only have I not been moved in my beliefs but I am stronger still.
This conversation has in fact took off in a certain direction once again therefore I will not keep silent. My desire is to be a light shining in the darkness, and not just another great debater. I allowed myself to cross that line once in this conversation and will not do it again (thank you again Mr. Mercer for opening my eyes…and God bless you)
I have shared many points of view with all of you. I want you to know that an no point did I ever imply that gifts of the spirit (including tongues) were essential to salvation. Do not get me wrong, I wholeheartedly believe in the gifts and have witnessed and/or experienced one or more myself. BUT…..they are not an essential requirement to salvation….they are an effect of salvation. I just wanted to make that point as I have been misunderstood and/or miscommunicated myself more than once already.
As for belief and faith in Jesus Christ…I plead not contest. Of course I believe this is required…but I do step it up just a bit. I believe that belief and faith in Jesus Christ should be a continuing event and not abandoned after the after the initial sanctifying event. Get saved…stay saved!
Baptism….well I admit my eyes have been opened in that what I mistook as a given and accepted universal truth within the majority of hearts is not as popular a “truth” as I thought. I still hold firm to MY belief that it IS required for one simple reason (I’m tired of the debates and scripture comparisons). My reason is that it WAS mentioned, recommended, and required more than once within the book of salvation. Once is enough for me to take it seriously. I WILL not allow myself to search for the easiest way to carry my cross and toss out the whole idea of baptism for ANY of the controversial reasons that have been listed by various opponents of baptism. It is the truth that in some sermons given by some speakers, baptism was not mentioned. I have also observed that baptism was going on all over the place and was not only recommended by but happening in the vicinity of Jesus and every single apostle and yet not once did they say that IT WAS NOT a requirement. They appeared to approve of the action. The closest thing to negative that baptism received was that is simply wasnt mentioned EVERY time.
Well guys, that is enough for me. I have to work out my own salvation and I just do not intend on gambling or taking chances with MY salvation. There is enough proof to imply that maybe, just maybe, baptism is required. At the very least, we can all agree that it pleases God therefore I will stand strong on the essentiality (I think I just made up that word) of baptism. As for those that have passed on without being baptized….its not for me to judge whether they are in heaven or they be in hell. I will worry about my own hide.
Everyone here has made some extremely good points and I can see why some of you believe what you do. I am not criticizing anyone and I apologize if I have presented myself in that fashion at any time. My hope is that someone, may have been reading all of this all along, that may not have known much at all about Jesus or salvation or anything, and through our example has enveloped their self within the scriptures in order to search out their own salvation as well.
God bless you all,
Scott Droddy
Ok…yes call me an idiot! (humor). I reread my post AFTER I had already posted it. I know I know…we are supposed to proofread before we turn in our paper…but I didnt. Anyways, I made the statement that this conversation is now going into a certain direction AGAIN and that I will NOT keep silent. Well that NOT was intended to be a NOW….lol. I WILL NOW KEEP SILENT.
I am sorry for the confusion. I have tried to appear so “intelligent” and/or together this whole converstion and yet I end on “dumb” note. Hopefully God has a sense of humor! I guess I can say that I have been humbled more than once now by this chat.
I am not leaving with attitude at all. I just sense that confrontational spirit coming back and as Mr. Arejay has stated, no good can come of it. By the way, wonderful comment (your most recent)!!! Thank you sir for your attempts to keep this whole conversation at an effective tone. God bless you! I have once stumbled with this flesh and this competitive spirit of mine in this very converstion, and many more times have I stumbled with that same attitude in life. I am seeking a meek spirit therefore I will abstain from any situation that provokes in other emotion.
Thanks again everyone! I’ll still be following! Y’all keep it clean and no hittin’ below the belt…lol (I always wanted to say that)
God bless you all…..again
Scott Droddy
TO ADMIN and viewers,
I would like to ask you a question. Before i do so i would also like to apologize for my actions of coming across to hard only because i was upset in the fact that you in your own words was trying to turn around things in this book to better suit you, also to the people that are reading this I love everyone and i dont want to argue or debate on Gods word, theres is no arguement about it for every word is true and if it were not supposed to be in the Bible then it would not be there ” believe” that!! ADMIN for example you want to only use one of Jesus’ sermons to say that baptism is not a requirement. You also said you wanted to basically exclude what Men had to say in the Bible. “Yet they said things that were of God”. hmmm…….. I think that what you said in the very first post that you made was (We thought it would be a good idea to look at a full sermon by Christ, not men, in order to get the essential truth of the gospel.) “right”? Ok thats fine if you want to do that but heres you another question if all we had to do is live by Jesus’ sermon on the mount then why is it not the “only” word of God? why is it not just standing alone in the Bible? I believe in “every” word of the Bible, unlike you who takes just bits and pieces that you use to meet your “satisfaction”. I’m not a believer on taking the Bible and outlining what i think i should live by, and then when i run accross something that maybe i dont like i rip that page out and say well that isnt what i want to do so ill pay no attention to it. This is where my question comes for you or to anyone that wants to answere.
Why is it that Baptism is throughout the Bible in the NT? why is it that Jesus said unto Nicodemus that he had to be BORN AGAIN of the water and the spirit? please dont try to explain to anyone that Jesus did not clearly mean baptism by saying these things. One more question for the Admin. I would like for you to tell me why Every book of the Bible is in the Bible? hmmm……. well Before you can ask me what kind of question that is, i will tell you! We are to abide by EVERYWORD not just what we want to adhere to. If it was not a requirement to be baptized then why is it in the WORD OF GOD? There is nothing in the Bible untrue and WE all should take the time to read and fully understand what everyword and message means in HIS word. Dont just take what you want to hear and live by and throw the rest away. Thats not how it works or thats not how it should, but unfortunately some do just that very thing. In the book of Revelation you will find this:
Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto ” every man ” that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
(watch this next verse very close )
Revelation 22:19
And if any man shall take away from the “WORDS” of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
this means EVERY single word from Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21
This will most likely be my last post, however i have enjoyed this website, i think it was a great idea. I read along as far as I could until i saw that the word of God was being misinterpreted or misread if you will, so just like any other human said what i had to say. Im not going to argue with anyone about the TRUTH i dont have to. I prayed about it and God told me last night that I should refrain myself after this post. He also gave me the Scripture in Revelation to use this morning. weird huh?? I have laid out the plan of salvation to all that has read. Its there and its very clear. But i cant go on with anyone that does not want to recieve the truth. I cant do it but i know who can and Its Jesus. One day everyone that didnt want to live by Everyword of God will have to tell him why just like I will have to tell him why i did the things in my life that was wrong. We are all sinners and have come short of the glory of God but I know who my redeemer is and Im proud to say I have been Baptized in His name “washed in the blood” and have the Holy Ghost. One day the trumpet will sound and he is going to catch his Bride away. I love you all and please forgive me for any hurt or any kind of confusion that i may have caused but folks its all there and I tried my very best to lay it out for you. Now whether or not you want to Believe thats your option but I cant say anymore. I refuse to be a part of a debate on the word of God. Admin please answere my questions that i have asked. I will continue to read along but will no longer comment ive said what i had to say. Thank you all for reading my views and i appreciate all others for posting theirs.
Ephesians:4
1I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, 2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; 3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
God bless you all,
Jeremy Pollock
hello Admin i could not help myself but to wonder why the comments that answered your questions that you asked me are deleted. hmmm……………. The questions that you did ask me such as ( if baptism is required then how did the people in the OT get to heaven? and how did the thief on the cross get to heaven when Jesus told him that today he would be in paradise?) admin those were some great questions and im just wondering why you decided to delete them. We never know who might be visiting this website and if they are troubled or confused about the same thing as you obviously was then they should understand just as you do now. At one point and time i asked the very same questions myself and it was until someone showed me word for word in the Bible did i fully understand why. So my thought here is, that if someone is searching for the Truth and asking them selves if they “was lied to” then alot of the sarcastic questions that you asked me could honestly work to someones advantage that is really seeking the truth. On a lighter note it doesnt surprise me that you deleted those questions that you asked, but this website could reach someone and could also help somebody to understand something that they have always wondered about and you Admin wants to take away some very good questions and only leave the answeres. I would like to say this if you are going to delete your questions that you had, then why leave the answeres that were gave to you?
CORRECTION: im sorry the first sentece of my last post was supposed to have said. ( admin why are all my posts that are answeres to your questions left on this website if all of your questions that you personally asked me are now deleted?)